THE FORUMS

December 10th, 2016
Routines versus no routines
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Tyler

Tyler

Instructor | Trusted Member

Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

To answer a few questions here all at once --

The reason I stopped using routines was because I lived in a kind of paranoia that one day the routines (and their format) would be played out. It bothered me because I felt like I was this new, cool guy -- but it could all end at some point because my tactics & techniques became too common-place.

About 2 years ago (when Neil started getting serious about his book) I decided as an experiment to stop using routines altogether. This was HARD for me. So hard, in fact, that I began to question what was wrong with my head to be so attached to them.

The other RSD guys did the same as well, and they took to it faster than I did -- probably because they hadn't invested as much time in building in autopilot responses for everything as I had, and because they had stronger "inner game" so to speak.

So, two years later, I actually feel kind of weird when I use an opinion opener. I see the girls answering my question and I think to myself "OMG, I just made up this story and they're answering it as if it was real!"

That said, this stuff still works as well as it always did. I've had a lot of success with it and can never discount it. It's just that in cities like London, NYC, and LA you're going to have people saying "Are you one of those pickup guys?!" every so often.

These places, particularly London but really everywhere, are SWARMING with pickup newbies. Attraction is not a choice, and you can easily get around this. But at the same time, my view is why not just avoid the issue in the first place?

There's no comparison to where I am now than to where I was 2 years ago. The routines becoming more popular (and thus turning me off of them) was the best thing that ever happened to me.

But at the same time, that's also because I spent 2 years focusing on every non-verbal aspect of this stuff -- the mental aspects, the dominance, the frame control, etc etc.. I mean, I REALLY focused -- the reason I spent 2 years to write the blueprint wasn't because it takes me that long to write a few hundred pages, but because I was literally researching what this stuff was all about.

One of the reasons I was turned off of an entirely unstructured approach 2 years ago was because there wasn't anyone who could actually do it very well. Not to diss anyone, but by my standards everyone who promoted a "natural" style game pretty much didn't make the grade.

Usually they were into it for some ethical reason or something, like "It's just more honest" or "You're really connecting with the girl." To me that stuff is like -- OK cool, ummm, I just want to get my foot in the door with this girl here, and I want to do what works.

These days I have a "structured approach to a non-structured game" so to speak. Rather than just saying "Just be alpha bro," I can spend hours explaining what this stuff means from top to bottom, in a way that can compute to a logical, computer nerd type guy like myself.

I do what I do now because it WORKS. It's better than what we used to do and it's more easily transferable.

Ultimately, I have no ethical or personal attachment to "routines" or "no routines." The whole debate is moot to me.

Some people take to a routines based approach better. Some take to a non-routines based approach. It's like how some people are good at math, others at English.

But I think it's cool that we have both options at this point, and that the publicity of this stuff is no longer an issue.


Tyler
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#1
_Fresh_

_Fresh_

Senior Member

Join Date: 08/22/2006 | Posts: 127

Tyler man thanks for coming out and responding to your customers' needs, I think thats really awesome man. Ive gotten through your Foundations program and loved it, you are a real inspiration to me, thanks again.
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#2
Moxy

Moxy

Respected Member

Join Date: 08/23/2006 | Posts: 332

Hey Tyler, cool post.

I'm having trouble figuring out how you start up a converstion in the case of a cold approach. You say no routines, but you don't really go into any specifics of what your style is like.

I open convos different ways all the time depending on situation, but there is one way I do it much more frequently.

For you, with no routines, is it predominantly a "Hi, I'm Tyler", Hi PlantAndStare , situational comment, opener based on what you and your friends are really talking about, or something else when you want to start up a convo?
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#3

don

Junior Member

Join Date: 08/24/2006 | Posts: 7

What is the method that RSD teaches? are they more focused on providing canned material to the students, or are they teaching natural game these days? and one more question. Are you guys only teaching how to attract girls or are you guys also teaching how to be a more social person by creating a social circle? i've heard of other workshops where they also teach you how to interact with other guys, mixed groups and creating a social circle.

I'd love to take a workshop with you guys. Tyler's stuff is awesome.

Don
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#4
Tyler

Tyler

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Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

don Wrote:
What is the method that RSD teaches? are they more focused on providing canned material to the students, or are they teaching natural game these days?



I don't think in terms of canned versus natural. The word "Hello" is a routine -- your routine for introducing yourself to people.

A sort of problem with RSD in terms of marketing is that with other companies you can say "They teach canned game" or "They teach natural game" or "They teach cocky and funny" or "They teach NLP", etc etc..

With RSD you can't do that. It's like "Umm, they teach RSD. Uhh, social dynamics, like, how to be social..."

One of the laws of propaganda is to create a basic message and repeat it over and over. Eg: If I say "I'm the best" for long enough, it will be tested at first, but eventually everyone will come to believe it.

In the case of RSD, we don't have something like that. Even with the blueprint, there isn't as much of a clear of a message as there should be.

The thing with me is that I'm 26 years old. Almost 27. I've been doing RSD since I was 22. I feel like I'm JUST starting to have put my time in here to be on a level where I DESERVE to have my own philosophy.

Once you have your own philosophy or model, the downside is that you create blindspots to everything that lies outside of it. You create new complexities and begin to focus on anything that REINFORCES your views, but ignore anything that defies your principles.

Like say that you think a 10 needs a certain type of game -- every time you use your type of game and it works you say "See, she needed x,y,z..." But if you have success without it, or if you don't have success at all, you don't notice it.

Whenever I hang out with guys from other companies it blows my mind the blindspots they have, and rather than getting arrogant about it, it prompts me to constantly re-examine my own assumptions.

I've been hesistant to create a model because I've wanted to stay as open-minded as possible. My primary goal with RSD is to improve MY OWN skills, so anything that results in my skills going down is useless to me (even if it results in more commercial success).

Again, I'm 26 years old. If I'm to be successful, my main success will come in my fourties (if I live that long). What's important now is for me to continually build my base of experience, intellect, creativity, speaking skills, writing skills, and mastery over my emotions.

If I HAD to give RSD a one word philosophy, the word I would use is "TRANSFORMATION" -- as in DEEP, IDENTITY LEVEL CHANGE.

To me, that's what RSD is ultimately all about. I think anything we teach could be brought back to that.

After the blueprint, I plan to release a more commercial, easily understandable book. I suppose I'll hammer away at that point.


Tyler
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#5
Tyler

Tyler

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Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

Moxy Wrote:
Hey Tyler, cool post.
For you, with no routines, is it predominantly a "Hi, I'm Tyler", Hi PlantAndStare , situational comment, opener based on what you and your friends are really talking about, or something else when you want to start up a convo?



That's a pretty good synopsis.

I try to avoid situational because I believe it can come across as "pacing" to the girl, which can seem too eager for rapport. What's interesting about situational pacing is that women can have autopilot responses towards it, because they've gotten it so many times from guys.

That said, I still do use pacing when it's 100% spontaneous and so it comes across tight. And of course, even if I get a poor initial reaction I can always turn it around.

Most often I prefer to walk up and say the first thing that comes into my mind. A great exercise for this is to go out with a friend and say the first word that comes into your mind, and then he has to immediately walk up and open with it. Then he does the same to you. Go back and forth.

This is a DIFFERENT FORMAT of opener, in the sense that with an opinion opener you get an initial great response, whereas with this you get 50% great response and 50% poor.

With the 50% poor, I field this as a congruence-test, and I sit there 100% unreactive.

IE:

ME: I LIKE SALAD.
HER: WTF?
ME: I LIKE CAESAR SALAD.
HER: UMM, WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS ?
ME: BUT I DON'T LIKE CRUTONS.
HER: UHHH, LOL, OKKKKKK...
ME: DO YOU SEE MY DILEMMA HERE?
HER: LOL.. WHAT'S YOUR NAME?

etc etc..


So if canned gets 100% great response, why use this as opposed to a canned opener?

Aside from the fact that you don't have every PU newbie in town using the same opener as you, it does certain things to your psychology.

1- It doesn't wire you to become a frame-control addict.
2- It teaches you how to be 100% unreactive.
3- It gets you away from button-pushing.
4- It cultivates confidence in what YOU have to say, and teaches you to draw others into YOUR standard instead of trying to live up to theirs.

This is all huge because of the habit that it cultivates. It's not that you COULDN'T learn these things using material. Theoretically you could.

Reality is another case, however. In reality, you'll probably wind up like 99% of people who learn from canned game -- a "response-junkie" or "reaction-seeker." Just like I was, as described in Neil's book -- and I'm supposedly a top student of that style of game (or not, depending on the mood of the guy's who are supposedly the judges of this).

That doesn't mean you won't get laid. I got laid plenty pushing girl's buttons. But these days I get less giggling and social attraction, and more of a deeper sexual attraction.

This is an obscure remark, but I believe that sexual attraction comes when the girl realizes that you are 100% beyond her ability to control, and if your state can't hold up in the luls of her responses you won't get sexual attraction.

By constantly needing to push for IOIs, your state comes to depend on the response you're getting. This is why SO MANY guys who learn it wind up saying things like "To beat the game, I had to leave it."

It's not the "game" that's the problem though. It's the TYPE of game that they're learning -- "Button pushing." Or even the fact that they're calling it "game" in the first place, which could be interpreted as messed up if you believe that the words you use are a reflection your deeper mentality.

And rather than finding a way to get around it, most guys just quit and rationalize that they're better off -- even though many of them don't get laid anymore and fall back into old habits.. shrug

That said, I still find HUGE value in what the guys who teach canned game have to say. Many of them have taught me a lot, and I have nothing but props for anyone who has the balls to teach this stuff live in the field.

Moreover, I believe that different guys learn better from different approaches. I don't necessarily believe in trying to push what worked for ME onto OTHER people. As this is my full time job, it's my obligation to calibrate to the needs of the guy I'm working with or suffer the consequences.

Hope that clears some things up.



Tyler
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#6

jaytonbye

Senior Member

Join Date: 09/04/2006 | Posts: 210

so how do you go about stacking openers without canned material? Just plow through with spontanious stuff? I've done it this way before, and it feels very natural, but it's dependent that I'm hardcore in state.
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#7

Hawk

Senior Member

Join Date: 08/22/2006 | Posts: 184

Wow!
What an self analazys....my compliments!

I also wrote an article about the same topic in another Forum, unfortunately it is in german and I´m too lazy to translate it....;)

I´m also in more natural game now.
I was teached by a guy from Croatia you might know who advises using no routines.
It is a difference, but I think a very valuable one.
I think a lot of community guys rely too much on canned material without the guts too use their own personality and things that happend in their own lifes....
(Like I did myself in the last month.....)

I also experienced that you can open with nearly anything.
You basically need just one word and you can turn it into a question even this is not my favourite way of opening (I´m simply not that good:D ).

And I also think a lot of guys don´t get how important Storytelling is, and also the art of bull ting.
You can´t learn that by using canned stories and materials all the time and improve your ability of learning canned stories and materials you just have to run out on at some crucial point in the set.
And what happens? You appear nervous and your set is stales out!

Even if I think that going direct does not work on every set when you are very new in doing it, I do like it!

I still want to use and learn a few routines too spice up my game but I´m happy I tried it the diffrent way!

And I advise it to everyone of you guys!
Go out and try it direct or natural and without routines.
Or open indirect and go on natural.

Remember: 55% Bodylanguage and facial expressions
38% voice tone
7% words you say

Just use your Alpha attitude, an high energy state, to do an relaxed and funny conversation!


P.S.: I don´t want to say that this way is the better or (my goodness...) the best way!
I think indirect game done properly is extremely powerfull I just want to advise you something I experienced myself.....and what I learned from that.
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#8

Fluid

Respected Member

Join Date: 09/01/2006 | Posts: 512

Tyler,... You've really helped me out with that last reply man, awesome.

Ive been constantly diagnosing and re-diagnosing these exact things in my own innergame. Ive had endless discussions with guys including my wing about this and all the faults not perse in indirect game itself but in the distorted mindsets and limiting believes it creates in the people that use it(or that the people that use it create in themselves depending on how you look at it. )

and this is probably even worse in others because they dont seem to see it coming. I think it might have to do with the fact that the average community guy's social life consists mainly out of sarging or clubbing at best witch is only a small subset of social life and the nature of this enviroment. they constantly do the first xhour of an interaction/ relationship and you simply wont see the flaws,

I became painfully aware after i got dropped in social circles with cool guys and girls that i was forced to hangout with on a longer term for extended periods of time.

But seriously the last 50 or so pages(and counting) of my journal have been about this thing. diagnosing myself trying to organise the chaos in my head trying to get it articulated somehow just trying to get my finger around thissomehow.
Not to mention endless debate about this trying to figure out if others guys were experiencing these same things and felt the same, but i kjust couldnt properly convey it.

Then you make a quick responce and in condense every damnthing ive been desperately trying to articulate.Thats slick man.
Im printing this out,


If i ever see you again i'd love to talk to you about condensing concepts and how to organise toughts, this is a big stickingpoint for me i have alot of trouble properly organising and articulating my toughts especially around deep complicated topics my innergame.
Actually id love to talk to you about a load of things.

-- i know its a bitofftopic but Do you have any tips on how to organise toughts etc???

Especially concearning innergame i can live with not being able to articulate my views on pickup.
But for example i had a social anxiety, and to get through that i had to do soo much digging, uncovering blindspots, constant monitoring and thinking about my tought patterns , tought loops , believes my perception etc its crazy, and up till today i still cant properly journal/process it in a way thats helpfull. My journal mainly serves the purpose of just endlessly ranting about something toughts as a way to better understand and internalise them in my head,simmilar to how you see guys do a post where they endlessly talk on n on n on about the same being the prize frame everytime with a diff twist not really saying anything but doing it as a way to grasp it and solidify it better in their own head.
when i read back entry's 6 months later its usually useless.

Another thing is i always have so many ideas in my head and i always want some kind of way to condense it so i can have kind of an overview.
I dont know, i dont think i even really know what im asking here.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to post that.

stay real
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#9
Tyler

Tyler

Instructor | Trusted Member

Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

WildFlower Wrote:
I guess what I really wanna know is, are you abandoning all "stock" material along with the routines based approach?



Hey man,

No I haven't used that stuff in a long time, although I think it's all solid.

In the past I didn't think there was any real alternative, in the sense that as a newb -- having met EVERYONE -- there wasn't a single guy in the community who I thought was even half-decent in the field that didn't use material. There were always guys who were uncanned. Many of them very cool, personable guys. But they weren't what I was personally looking to emulate, in terms of their results.

Once Neil became serious about his book, however, I started looking for different ways of doing things. I did this for a number of reasons. The obvious one was that I was tired of being paranoid that my whole gameplan was going to become so common-place that it ceased to work.

But beyond that, I had this sort of feeling of lack -- like when I'd be hanging out with regular guys and I didn't have the same sort of status as I had with girls who's states I was pumping with material.

It took me about 2 years to get my "skills" to top level without a shred of material (ie: on the level of my old skills but 100% uncanned), and it was very difficult.

The exercise I started with was to challenge myself to not say a single thing that I didn't want to say. That means that unless I think it's funny, or I want to say it, I don't say it.

At first I'd go out and often have nothing to say. I'd approach the girl and just sit there, feeling all the canned lines going through my head -- my brain screaming "Cummon man! You can get this girl! Just spit your game on her!"

My buddies would be talking to the girls, and I'd just be sitting there saying nothing -- almost like an introvert. I eventually realized that this was partially a filter in my head, which was operating on the assumption that what I had to say wasn't good enough unless: 1) the girl was already in my frame because I'd hooked, or 2) it was a field-tested piece of material.

The way I operated before was to hook quickly with material, and then once I'd hooked I felt confident to "be myself." But without having hooked, I had an instinct that prevented me from doing that.

Over time I became able to hold conversations just by talking about my day. I could talk about my taxes or books I read and get the same "buying temperature" response as I did with my best routines.

I eventually realized that I was previously trying to react to THEIR standards, rather than DRAWING them into MINE.

This was a huge paradigm shift for me, because it eliminated any residual dancing-monkey aspects of my personality, and helped me to come across more masculine -- all of which gets me more SEXUAL attraction as opposed to a more social attraction that had to build up to become physical.

I still think all the other stuff is great. But the way I'm doing things now I'm much happier about. At this point I can NOW use routines, and have them work much, much better -- and without coming across reaction-seeking or dancing-monkey. But I had to go without for a long, long time in order to get to that point.

I'm not calling one approach better than the other. I'm simply talking about what I'm doing now, my path, what it took to get there, etc..

I think different people take better to different approaches, and at different points in their development. I'm not trying to push an ideology here. Just conveying my experiences.



Tyler
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#10

Toi_Boi

Senior Member

Join Date: 09/13/2006 | Posts: 242

i wondered why there were no TD posts on the boards

they are all here, i have a new home : )

/edit. aha i cant believe that got blanked out :P
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