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July 25th, 2017
Installing Hyper Effective "Social Calibration" And "Empathy" Into Students (And Yourself!)
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#31
Resmat

Resmat

Trusted Member

Join Date: 06/10/2012 | Posts: 2514

Starno wrote:
Isn't that Push - pull ?

Basically push is when you impose your frame to the girl.

And pull is more when you want to relate to her.
yeah.. I feel like aggression/tenderness also kind of relates to outer/inner game

being aggressive is your outer game, being physical, intent, eye contact, body longuage, etc..

inner is the tenderness.. freedom from outcome, not being needy, etc.
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#32
donston

donston

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Join Date: 11/07/2011 | Posts: 40

 I just recently watched the Alexander Hot Seat ... I think he had a multitude of examples like this combination of empathy and sociopathy.
Is it like ...

You come out as a physical guy.  You over calibrate the physical with the girl.  The girl thinks that you are to physical.  You calibrate by saying, "Sorry, I was raised with 3 brothers.  I may come out too physical and don't know how to be gentle with girls."
- Concluding with you understanding how the girl feels, rationalizing why you are a physical guy and finally ending with the girl allowing your physical behavior ... is it like this?

I think Julien explained this in his first Hot seat, where he immediatly isolates the girl from her group off the open.  Then he rationalizes to the girl's thought of, "Does this guy know what he is doing?", by saying ,"I am such an asshole for stealing you from your friends" ... is this an example of empathy + sociopathy?

Hehe, sorry if my grammar is off ... I am asian and my english is not great ^_^!  <--- (Is this also empathy + sociopathy)

Thanks for the help!

Donston!

PS: Great topic and explanation of empathy + sociopathy, TYLER!
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#33

ImBringingSexyBack

Senior Member

Join Date: 03/30/2013 | Posts: 199

Get guys to abolish negging. Most guys I included just don't use it correctly. I'll say something and the girl will be like wtf... luckily I'm spotting that it's not working for me. I'll be better off with fun light hearted teasing and pulling them back so that's my goal from now on. 

Tbh I think guys need to actually hang out with girls to learn empathy.  We hang around with other guys all the time but it's not very empathetic,  we just constantly mess around.  

It's very difficult  teach as it's gained through emotional intelligence from constant experiences but beliefs also affect a persons empathy. I'm not sure the balance between pushy and empathy can be taught,  only gained through trial and error but one must have empathy in the first place...

I believe getting students to actively engage in empathy after pushing may help students.  But they must have a peer to review afterwards and tell them if they needed more or less empathy towards how the girl felt. Sure some students will say 'whatever' but once they see results then there's their carrot.  
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#34
QUANT

QUANT

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Join Date: 04/11/2013 | Posts: 30

is better to learn to be assertive first because you learn to say NO even if some people will get pissed off... have to learn to deal with angry people when following your goals coming from the high value place

then you develop empathy.. you understand the girl, listening etc etc.. but you take it just as info for not doing shit you don't want to do.. not as a "i will do what she wants" device... its very different being empathic as a way to share who you are in a better way VS being empathic as if you had some obligation to validate the girl without any reason

if you learn empathy before stopping being a you will feel that "understanding the girl" means "do what she wants".. and it's not that...

the point... i don't think that there is a "balance" between assertiveness and empathy like "right amounts"

i feel you should be a kick ass empathic listener and AT THE SAME TIME assertive like a old high status grand father
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#35

Cutie*

Senior Member

Join Date: 02/23/2013 | Posts: 213

In terms of one's own mind frame, I think it's important to remind yourself that you are talking to a person. Like a big sticking point for me right now is that I treat women like objects for hanky panky.
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#36

BadboyOfTao

Member

Join Date: 07/26/2010 | Posts: 66

Some things that have helped me become better with calibration and empathy (in random order) :
* experience
* asking my wing to hit me on my arm when I spit stuff in a robotic routine way
* NVC (non violent communication) which helped me with my relationship
* focus your attention on the girl while looking in her eyes
* apologize if needed
* step back if needed
* meditation
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#37
UtopiaFive

UtopiaFive

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Join Date: 09/16/2008 | Posts: 4960

Solid video.  
Tyler wrote:
THANKS guys!!

Ya this post is for some research I'm doing towards a larger article / video, so I now see a bunch of areas to look into.

ImmortalEngineer I'm heading to Atlanta tomorrow, but am working on this in all my spare time, to better understand how to communicate all this.

I've also found an Elliiot Hulse video that is eerily similar to what I was saying.  WATCH IT.



Tyler
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#38
Paris Boum Boum

Paris Boum Boum

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Join Date: 04/02/2009 | Posts: 2996

IMO the pedagogical problem is the following :
-on the one hand you teach student how to push through their comfort zone and do what their emotions tell them not to do (approach, escalate, etc) = shut down the emotions
-but at the same time you want them to say in touch with their emotions so as to keep an empathetic relationship to the people they are talking to = stay in touch with the emotions

I may be wrong, but the solution to this could be radical honesty, authenticity : push the comfort zone, but at the same time express how you feel and how you make the other feel instead of trying to be James Bond when it's not the case. That way you take right action, but you also keep space for empathy. 

Thanks for the starvation analogy, it's a great one and explains a lot. 
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#39

pringles

Respected Member

Join Date: 04/28/2009 | Posts: 963

Tyler wrote:

So that's what I really want to teach, and come up with ways to...

1) Get students to BUY IN that social calibration and empathy is critical to their success (WAY more than techniques).  Like get them to believe it's worthwhile to learn in the first place, and very possible to just pull women off of mostly the "right vibe" (with just a bit of technique peppered in to move things properly...)

2) Explain that it's a subtle combination of both empathy and sociopathy -- ie: fully treating her like a human, but also being willing to not give a fuck what she thinks and draw her into your world.

3) Create "models" for what social calibraition actually is, and how to go about learning it in a step by step way.  Exercises, etc.

I think I could do some great work here while I'm still teaching pickup, and leave behind a few great vids on it.

Thanks for reading all this lol, thoughts appreciated!!

Tyler
IME guys that can't be empathetic are generally to eager to get their their nut off or dominate the girl in some way. Where as guys that are too empathtic are more eager for validation from a chick.

I've seen both of these in myself at times and for me when it happened it was like i was too close to the interaction and when i stopped giving a fuck it was more like i had a birds eye view and could actually see what was gonig on with the girl. Seeking an outcome destroys responsivity infield. Not seeking an outcome expands your awarness and you end up being able to see where people are comign from in their communication and then you can act with clarity and influence.

Also i find when i enter a flow state it becomes even easier to be empathetic, because getting out of my head and having no agenda frees my mind up to really be aware of others
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#40
skizzle

skizzle

Senior Member

Join Date: 12/13/2007 | Posts: 173

Resmat wrote:

Starno wrote:
Isn't that Push - pull ?

Basically push is when you impose your frame to the girl.

And pull is more when you want to relate to her.
yeah.. I feel like aggression/tenderness also kind of relates to outer/inner game

being aggressive is your outer game, being physical, intent, eye contact, body longuage, etc..

inner is the tenderness.. freedom from outcome, not being needy, etc.

This is the best analogy for this. Tenderness is also an understanding, which is the perspective-taking that Tyler was originally getting at.  The issue for most guys Id imagine is holding the two in balance.  New guys tend to come from this really tender friend zone plce and drive off the deep end and try to AMOG the shit out of everything (or never take action and fall out of the community).  The issue is walking back towards the reasonable medium area.  Probably too complicated on the whole to tackle in a 3 day bootcamp, but the seeds can be planted for establishing intent and perspective-taking that can grow based on the lessons and experiences within said bootcamp.
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