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December 9th, 2016
Installing Hyper Effective "Social Calibration" And "Empathy" Into Students (And Yourself!)
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Tyler

Tyler

Instructor | Trusted Member

Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

So this past weekend I had a few students who experienced a lot of challenge with social calibration -- ie: empathy of how they were making other people feel -- and it got me thinking about SOCIAL CALIBRATION and EMPATHY.

This is kind of an interesting area for me personally.

When I was first learning game, I was constantly obsessing about whether or not girls were upset by me approaching them, escalating, pulling them, etc.  My biggest obstacle was thinking TOO MUCH about what the girls were thinking, to the point it made me seem indecisive and beta.

Eventually I learned that by pushing through that fear, and just going for it, it sort of "balanced out" my usual over analysis of what the girls were thinking, and I would get laid.

So in my teaching this has sort of come out with me saying a lot of "MAN UP!!  JUST DO IT!!  CLOSE!!"

In reality though, I think there's also the other end of the spectrum where there's guys who truly do not give a fuck if they're offending the girls, and go in the total opposite direction.

What they need is more EMPATHY.

They need to actually GIVE A FUCK how they're making the girl feel.

This is a subtle balance between empathy and sociopathy.  On one level you have to be aware of the girls' subjective reality and how you're making her feel, but on another level you also have to be able to cut over what she's doing and impose your frame on her so that she gets attracted.

You have to be both the pushy guy at times as well as the empathetic guy who doesn't creep her out at other times.

It's funny to think that in my game I'm both pushy as fuck (look my the vid in my sig) but also hyper calibrated to how I make the girl feel.  I have to do BOTH, and alternate between the two.

So how do I TEACH this?  I want to expand on it while I'm still teaching game.

I obviously have a ton of ways I've done it, but at times I've failed to connect, as the guys who don't give a fuck don't see how "giving a fuck" would be of value to them.

This is especially the case with guys who believe that "technique" can save them from learning to really relate with other people as human beings.

And again this is a complex area, because on one level you want to really relate with the girl, but on another level you DO want to pimp her into your reality.

The problem is guys get so focused on pimping the girl, they wind up coming across as "a little off" because they obviously don't have any view of the girl as a human at all (which actually makes THEM look weird, not the girl...)

Also IMO the hardest part of this phenomenon is that often with dudes who lack empathy, they also believe the next technique will finally get them laid - so when I push them to learn empathy they have little interest.  They may even think it's a "cop out" from showing them whatever secret technique I've been holding back.

IMO this occurs because on some unconscious level they don't believe they ever COULD learn empathy or social calibration, so they keep trying to find ways to avoid learning it.  So to get them to want to learn it, I'd also have to convince them that it's possible and beneficial to learn in the first place.

This was really the challenge back when the book "The Game" came out, and dudes were flooding in who truly believed in they memorized enough routines they would suddenly get laid.

And then the whole weekend wound up being about unwiring their fucked up beliefs on this, while they'd complain that they should have taken a Bootcamp with a company that would show them the real secrets, and then usually a year or two later they'd email me profusely thanking me for saving them from that and helping them get laid.

(Literally viewing it like I saved them from a life of pure shit lol...)

Anyway I do NOT want this to be a fest about people who "don't get it" -- but rather would love to hear experience from people who have had trouble with empathy and social calibraiton themselves (tell me how I can help teach you!), or who have buddies who are overly obsessed with techniques and failing to calibrate or view the girls as human beings and interact with them as such (I'll make a vid you can show them!).

And btw the last thought I'd share to hammer the point....

One of my students, he went up to IMO the hottest girl of the night and tried to execute a pickup technique he'd learned, then got shut down.  No big deal obviously, we all get shot down at times.  Regardless, I opened her next being very normal and basically just hooked her in by my "vibe" so to speak, and she jumped off of the guy she was with, exclaimed "I'm hanging out with YOU all night!!!" and came with us.

THIS HAPPENED because I came across as a guy who was both pushy but also very aware of how she felt, unlike most guys who approach.

Yes I pushed over the guy she was talking to, which is a clearly very unempathetic, and then I dragged her out of her previous conversation, which is pretty nuts.  But from there it was FULLY OBVIOUS that I fully understood how she felt, was treating her like a normal human being, and could be trusted to relate with her and NOT make her uncomfortable.

On one level YES I was teasing the shit out of her, even dissed her a bit, but then on another level there was just something about my vibe that i GOT her and knew how to make her feel GOOD.  She could sense she would never feel uncomfortable with me, and only have fun.

I was somewhat pushy, but at the same time very human.  It was that critical combination that conveyed true confidence, not some gimmicky weird shit I was trying to do.

So that's what I really want to teach, and come up with ways to...

1) Get students to BUY IN that social calibration and empathy is critical to their success (WAY more than techniques).  Like get them to believe it's worthwhile to learn in the first place, and very possible to just pull women off of mostly the "right vibe" (with just a bit of technique peppered in to move things properly...)

2) Explain that it's a subtle combination of both empathy and sociopathy -- ie: fully treating her like a human, but also being willing to not give a fuck what she thinks and draw her into your world.

3) Create "models" for what social calibraition actually is, and how to go about learning it in a step by step way.  Exercises, etc.

I think I could do some great work here while I'm still teaching pickup, and leave behind a few great vids on it.

Thanks for reading all this lol, thoughts appreciated!!

Tyler
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#1
Kid_Ink

Kid_Ink

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Join Date: 02/19/2013 | Posts: 593

 Thanks for taking the time to write this.
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#2

Ballgames

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Join Date: 07/25/2011 | Posts: 2584

If a student doesn't view the girl as a human - seems like there are at least two ways of dealing with this

1. Have them come to understand that the girl is human
2. Teach them "techniques" to understand "how" to calibrate

I think part of the issue with calibration is that it's one of those things that has SO MUCH to do with "field experience" - Like how do you teach a dude, whose never "forced" a girl to kiss him - the difference between doing this in a calibrated way (where the second it happens, she's like putty in your arms) and doing this in a non-calibratd way (where the second it happens, she's running to the bouncers to kick you out) - it's all the subtleties of the eye contact and how much physical force you're using etc. 

As far as getting students to buy-in" - This could easily just be about putting more emphasis on this particular topic, in your videos.... Think about it- like if you were to tell people that all of your success came because of "empathy" - you'd have like a fuckton of little tylers walking around trying to practice empathy lol - and no, I'm not saying you should lie and say that, I'm just making the point that if you emphasize this area more, in general, people will be into it.

As for "models" of learning:

1. Use the anology of "push//pull" as a way to describe "empathy/sociopathy" - I think that guys like this, may actually understand "push/pull" more than they would understand being "empathetic" - and also, people tend to automatically go to the extremes with this stuff.... so you could have a model that teaches empathy, in a similar way that one might teach "push/pull" - Cause, in a sense, what you want to be teaching these guys, is sorta just another version of "push//pull" - or at least , when I think about it, that makes sense to me.

Or just don't do any of that haha, but figured I'd give my thoughts
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#3
Tyler

Tyler

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Join Date: 08/20/2006 | Posts: 8726

btw I talked to a very hot girl about this and here is her thoughts....

Imagine if you were starving for food. Then all of a sudden after weeks of starvation, you had a super fancy meal of fine food put in front of you. Obviously you would be too starving to observe basic table manners or really enjoy the food, you would just shove it down your throat.

Similarly with a stunning girl, if you can't calibrate to her subjective reality, it comes across like you are starving for attention from women and can't take the "extra step" to be aware of how you're making her feel and adapt her experience, since all you can think of is getting what you urgently need from her.  Basically it makes you come across like a loser, and women aren't really into charity as far as sex.

--

Again this is that SUPER THIN LINE -- a fine balance between being man enough to step up and decisively take what you want, or even being a dick in a way that she finds challenging and likes, but OTOH making her feel aware that she will always feel comfortable around you since you're aware of how you're making her feel and actually give a shit.

I think it also goes as far as how you seem like you'd be in bed.  You're both assertive but also aware of how you make her feel.

Tyler
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#4
QUANT

QUANT

Member

Join Date: 04/11/2013 | Posts: 30

some kj :D

IMHO
empathy comes from field experience when the "venue" is the right one... venue selection is a key part in learning this skill through the field.. the brain takes what it's necessary 

going to venues where socializing is key, the group is big and the approach is more indirect: you build core social skills like listening, leadership, deal with groups, understand other people's goals etc

in the same way that going to a club will force you to be a guy who have fun... going to a high end venue will force you to build social entitlement... and doing daygame will transform you in a creep lol

what helps me a lot to develop empathy was choosing venues where i was forced to open socially and stay in set, do long sets and 95% of the time TALK WITH THE GROUP (not being in 1-1)

travel alone: that's a big one (btw, good book: shantaram)... going to bars alone... venue change people.. lead ur friends friday night..  those drills don't get you laid a lot but gets you more socially skilled...

you don't need to buy in on that and then go out with "i will learn empathy" in mind, you will learn it because you are "forced" to take in a leadership role if you want to work a fucked up social logistics ... 

and by being used to take leadership roles you naturally become empathic because empathy is not "good in itself" is a good skill for leadership (it builds listening and assertiveness and being cool)

bottom line: FIELD IS KING... but it's very good to do different venues... clubs/day game for the sexworthy part but also socially endure big sets, seated sets, quiet bars, peer groups, social events etc.

going to venues where you are "forced" to not being a jerk, where you are" forced" to take in leadership roles, where you are" forced" to be patient with an annoying group, that builds empathy

same with entitlement and high value traits.. you can learn it and then go open HB10 on the street.. or being more clever and just expose yourself to high status venues and get it in a more organic way.

good reads about empathy

- leadership & self deception

about social calibration

imho, its important to define what means "bring value" in each context... and get awareness on what are the goals of a girl team or people in general on a night out (learn why people go out by going out with people) then acknowledge when you are being a liability and when you are bringing value to a group of people.

with the girl... get awareness on two modalities of communication: "cut the shit/normal/serious" vibe (you are investing your time) vs "talking BS/gaming/flirting/joking" vibe (nobody is taking the risk to invest in the interaction)... at some point is at that level where the break/build rapport dynamic is hapenning ...

learn when to lead and learn when to follow.. that's huge... that comes with time .. but some people are so uncomfortable when not leading.. sometimes is just about staying there and follow the group.. that builds so much rapport... the fact of sometimes not-leading creates a frame as if you already know the group.. 
Tyler wrote:
So this past weekend I had a few students who experienced a lot of challenge with social calibration -- ie: empathy of how they were making other people feel -- and it got me thinking about SOCIAL CALIBRATION and EMPATHY.

This is kind of an interesting area for me personally.

When I was first learning game, I was constantly obsessing about whether or not girls were upset by me approaching them, escalating, pulling them, etc.  My biggest obstacle was thinking TOO MUCH about what the girls were thinking, to the point it made me seem indecisive and beta.

Eventually I learned that by pushing through that fear, and just going for it, it sort of "balanced out" my usual over analysis of what the girls were thinking, and I would get laid.

So in my teaching this has sort of come out with me saying a lot of "MAN UP!!  JUST DO IT!!  CLOSE!!"

In reality though, I think there's also the other end of the spectrum where there's guys who truly do not give a fuck if they're offending the girls, and go in the total opposite direction.

What they need is more EMPATHY.

They need to actually GIVE A FUCK how they're making the girl feel.

This is a subtle balance between empathy and sociopathy.  On one level you have to be aware of the girls' subjective reality and how you're making her feel, but on another level you also have to be able to cut over what she's doing and impose your frame on her so that she gets attracted.

You have to be both the pushy guy at times as well as the empathetic guy who doesn't creep her out at other times.

It's funny to think that in my game I'm both pushy as fuck (look my the vid in my sig) but also hyper calibrated to how I make the girl feel.  I have to do BOTH, and alternate between the two.

So how do I TEACH this?  I want to expand on it while I'm still teaching game.

I obviously have a ton of ways I've done it, but at times I've failed to connect, as the guys who don't give a fuck don't see how "giving a fuck" would be of value to them.

This is especially the case with guys who believe that "technique" can save them from learning to really relate with other people as human beings.

And again this is a complex area, because on one level you want to really relate with the girl, but on another level you DO want to pimp her into your reality.

The problem is guys get so focused on pimping the girl, they wind up coming across as "a little off" because they obviously don't have any view of the girl as a human at all (which actually makes THEM look weird, not the girl...)

Also IMO the weirdest part of this phenomenon is that often with dudes who lack empathy, they also usually believe the next technique will finally get them laid - so when I push them to learn empathy they have little interest.  They may even think it's a "cop out" from showing them whatever secret technique I've been holding back.

This was a huge challenge back when the book "The Game" came out, and dudes were flooding in who truly believed in they memorized enough routines they would suddenly get laid.

And then the whole weekend wound up being about unwiring their fucked up beliefs on this, while they'd complain that they should have taken a Bootcamp with a company that would show them the real secrets, and then usually a year or two later they'd email me profusely thanking me for saving them from that and helping them get laid.

(Literally viewing it like I saved them from a life of pure shit lol...)

Anyway I do NOT want this to be a fest about people who "don't get it" -- but rather would love to hear experience from people who have had trouble with this themselves, or who have buddies who are overly obsessed with techniques and failing to calibrate or view the girls as human beings and interact with them as such.

The last sort of thought I'd make on this is that one of my students, he went up to one of the hottest girls we'd seen all night and tried to execute a pickup technique he'd learned, and got shut down.  I went out fully normal and she jumped off of the guy she was with, exclaimed "I'm hanging out with YOU all night!!!" and came with us.

THIS HAPPENED because I came across as a guy who was normal and cool, unlike most guys who approach.

Yes I pushed over the guy she was talking to, which is a bit sociopathic, and then I dragged her out of her previous conversation, which is a bit narcissistic.  But from there it was FULLY OBVIOUS that I fully understood how she felt, was treating her like a normal human being, and could be trusted to relate with her and NOT make her uncomfortable.

I was somewhat pushy, but at the same time very human.  It was that critical combination that conveyed true confidence, not some gimmicky weird shit I was trying to do.

So that's what I really want to teach, and come up with ways to...

1) Get students to BUY IN that social calibration and empathy is critical to their success (WAY more than techniques)

2) Explain that it's a subtle combination of both empathy and sociopathy -- ie: fully treating her like a human, but also being willing to not give a fuck what she thinks and draw her into your world.

3) Create "models" for what social calibraition actually is, and how to go about learning it in a step by step way.  Exercises, etc.

I think I could do some great work here while I'm still teaching pickup, and leave behind a few great vids on it.

Thanks for reading all this lol, thoughts appreciated!!

Tyler
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#5
la leuce

la leuce

Respected Member

Join Date: 08/10/2009 | Posts: 510

 Holy fuck. I'm in love<3 Like really... Thanks so fucking much. This is perfect for me right now even though the reason I like it so much is completely different from why you say people need it...
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#6
Adioso

Adioso

Respected Member

Join Date: 07/29/2013 | Posts: 380

Yeah... see the problem with empathy is you are reacting to her reality and you do your self in trying to caliberate to her feelings ... Its hard to push when you are being  empathetic..
I had indeed done approaches before reading up on online pick up mostly daygame ... she creeps out you get creeped out ... theres emphathy for you ...
Also the whole focus on emphathy kind of kills your  dont give a fuck about what you think vibe ..
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#7
JullianKuni

JullianKuni

Junior Member

Join Date: 08/03/2013 | Posts: 2

Being in the Army, it becomes difficult at times to calibrate between being professional for my job and for the game. I'm always positive, and show that I'm a cool guy at work, but the girls here constantly throw congruence tests...some I can't really respond to due to crazy sexual harassment laws in the army(so, I mainly talk to non military girls). So it breaks up the whole flow I have going on and I lose my calibration a bit at the time. I don't care what anybody thinks of me(to the point where I become frustrated and not give damn), and I'm trying to find that balance where I can handle it on all fronts. I think maybe it's because I'm changing still as far as inner game, and the people are like who the hell is this guy. It was easier when I was a civilian, because I had plenty of positive people in NC. I'm stationed in GA, and this environment is very closed minded, and punishes for being yourself(even when I'm not in uniform), that has to be where my empathy comes from. I'm attending your workshop in a few days, hopefully you cover this issue bro...I never hear about military guys in RSD, just trying to be different from this "yes man" crowd.
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#8
Insanity2.0

Insanity2.0

Senior Member

Join Date: 07/18/2013 | Posts: 184

 I think it has a lot to do with people who're not calibrated enough putting up shields acting like they "Don't give a fuck" but they're just acting like they don't wanna communicate with the chick on a personal level because that would also mean exposing themselves which also means showing to other people that you are comfortable with yourself. Which IMO most newbies aren't. Which is why they kind of want to stick to lines and techniques instead of being themselves. Being themselves would mean letting other people actually know what you think of yourself through your actions and words.

Just my 2 cents.
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#9
UtopiaFive

UtopiaFive

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Join Date: 09/16/2008 | Posts: 4956

Owen its cool that you're wanting to assemble the "entire body of knowledge" on the subject here.  

Unfortunately, IMO, part of this is not stuff that'll get handled in the context of a bootcamp.  But you can still direct guys on how to handle this.  

Here's the message I'd give guys...


1.) You might want to check out a particular part of this book called "To Sell is Human" where he talks about EMPATHY vs PERSPECTIVE TAKING.  This part is clearly bootcamp fixable.  Its just a mindset, a cognitive thinking fix.  

The gist of it is this:
There is a emotional empathy (which is called "empathy") and a logical empathy (which is called "perspective taking" -- where you logically understand what she is feeling).  

Empathy is more useful in say relationships whereas perspective taking is more useful in cold approach.  If you "feel her discomfort" you will not even want to do the parts that make her uncomfortable whereas if you are simple cognitively aware that she is uncomfortable then you can back off and say a statement of empathy.  


2.) Also here is one of the biggest blockers from actually connecting to a girl: that you are not connected to yourself.  Not bootcamp fixable.  Its deeply embedded emotions, which an instructor can facilitate for the weekend (by fulfilling the students "emotional needs" by "being there" and all), but not bootcamp fixable sustainably in the long run.  Student needs to do shit on his own with another long-term relationship (not with a girl, with a therapist or mentor or something like that, maybe even a "sponsor" in a 12 step group).  

This can come from either unresolved emotional wounds or just having a lot of bad emotions and not understanding how to deal with them (which is, quite understandable).  For understanding "the problem" see the chapter "Soul Shrapnel" in "Finding Your Own Northstar."  If you're "emotionally wounded" you have to talk to a good therapist.  For more on this, my opinion is that the best "method" comes from Daniel Siegel's book Mindsight... in my eyes, that book and body of knowledge holds the solution.  

Here's a short vid on his stuff...



The reason anyone is STARVING for female attention is not they want the SEX from the girls, its that they are starving for attention, period.  This literally comes from unfulfilled childhood needs, which means you need a relationship with someone who has EMPATHY.  Many people get this from their parents growing up and then become well-adjusted.  If you don't, and you like the approach Daniel Siegel takes in his book Mindsight, see a therapist who likes Daniel Siegel, I found one by searching "[city I'm in] Mindsight Therapist" and looked around Google's results until I found something relevant.  People here largely hate this therapy shit, and well you should, if you're only seeing a therapist who talks logically (cognitive behavioral therapy) rather than say being able to hear you talk about difficult emotions and then actually genuinely feel them and not say "OK is being sad really helping you, no, stop, go approach a girl to solve your problems."  Being depressed and approaching a chick won't work, yes you can cover it up with state (it works when it works) or find girls who are also emotionally unfulfilled and fulfill each others needs where you fit together like puzzle pieces (see "Codependent No More" or any similar book).  



3.) Its mostly when you feel good about yourself that you can automatically see where others are at...when you're unhappy you tend to not automatically be empathetic.  Also not truly bootcamp fixable.  Lifestyle changes for the most part.  

The thing is the environment of positive emotions or whatever its called Owen is exactly what it takes to "get the girls."  You RSD instructors have it because
1. You're doing bootcamp every weekend and no matter how commonplace it gets, you're ALWAYS helping guys who need help, or guys who are doing what you enjoy well and helping them step it up further.  
2. Your job even if you're working 99 hours a week or however much is actually in line with YOUR PURPOSE so its always giving you positive emotions.  
3. You're also even in addition to the fact that you're following your passion and purpose, enjoying the FREEDOM aspect of that 3-part formula you mentioned in Hotseat of Grounded + Free + On Purpose.  You have that formula ingrained into how you spend your time (with RSD and with game), so as stated in Blueprint I guess, you need your life aligned with that...
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#10
UtopiaFive

UtopiaFive

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Join Date: 09/16/2008 | Posts: 4956

Probably one of your few actually bad posts IMO.  
Buddhagames wrote:
If a student doesn't view the girl as a human - seems like there are at least two ways of dealing with this

1. Have them come to understand that the girl is human
2. Teach them "techniques" to understand "how" to calibrate

I think part of the issue with calibration is that it's one of those things that has SO MUCH to do with "field experience" - Like how do you teach a dude, whose never "forced" a girl to kiss him - the difference between doing this in a calibrated way (where the second it happens, she's like putty in your arms) and doing this in a non-calibratd way (where the second it happens, she's running to the bouncers to kick you out) - it's all the subtleties of the eye contact and how much physical force you're using etc. 

As far as getting students to buy-in" - This could easily just be about putting more emphasis on this particular topic, in your videos.... Think about it- like if you were to tell people that all of your success came because of "empathy" - you'd have like a fuckton of little tylers walking around trying to practice empathy lol - and no, I'm not saying you should lie and say that, I'm just making the point that if you emphasize this area more, in general, people will be into it.

As for "models" of learning:

1. Use the anology of "push//pull" as a way to describe "empathy/sociopathy" - I think that guys like this, may actually understand "push/pull" more than they would understand being "empathetic" - and also, people tend to automatically go to the extremes with this stuff.... so you could have a model that teaches empathy, in a similar way that one might teach "push/pull" - Cause, in a sense, what you want to be teaching these guys, is sorta just another version of "push//pull" - or at least , when I think about it, that makes sense to me.

Or just don't do any of that haha, but figured I'd give my thoughts

















PS Did you like that push I did on you?  (Authentic push.)  
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