October 23rd, 2018
Are we just a sum of what girls can get from us?
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Respected Member

Join Date: 08/29/2008 | Posts: 304

DmKrad wrote:
 I want to pose a question here that I think is key to understanding what is bothering you:

You say you are upset that girls don't appreciate you just for you, but only what you have to offer them i.e. your value in terms of security, fun, alpha maleness, orgasms etc. 
On the same note maybe it upsets you what you see in yourself:  That you only like girls because of their symmetrical faces, perfectly proportioned, fit bodies, how they turn you on etc. 

My question is what is this real you that you are talking about? And don't give me some Tollean bull about the silent watcher.

Seriously think about it.  Your question is implying that this 'real you' offers zero value to the girl which leaves you with one of two options that you need to define in your question:

1)  Either the real you is completely asexual, and consists of nothing that could be conceived of as valuable or attractive in any way by a woman,  or...

2)  You are implying that if the woman was suddenly unable to receive your value somehow, and value was offered by expression of your true self, then she would leave because you are nothing to her without value even though you are being you.

I'm pretty sure you're talking about 2) but if you're talking about 1) I'd say you've reduced the 'real you' to an arbitrarily small nothingness that has no place in the real world.

In the second case I would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the girl is doing, and in fact it would be wrong for her to stay with you.

Why?  Well think about yourself for a moment, and imagine you are dating a 5 who bitches at you unncessically and sucks in bed, then you have the opportunity to date a confident, fun 9.  It would be a sign of a lack of respect for yourself and a lack of drive not to 'move up' by going with the 9.  What has essentially happened is you've moved on from someone offering less value to someone offering more.

Now in the girl's shoes, if you offer no value to her, it would be a sign of disrespect towards herself not to 'move up' by instead being with a guy who offers more value. 

Loyalty is really a form of corrupt, masked morality.  The cleverness of the masking is that what looks like loyalty is often really practicality in disguise.  In essence loyal acts are in fact selfish acts.  For example the loyalty of parents to kids:  Evolution dictates mathematically that a parent past the age of being able to have more offspring who has one child, will sacrifice their life for that child, unless there is massive ability to increase the reproductive output of the neises and nephews, which could also be calculated.  Similarly, loyalty in marriage:  There are massive financial costs to divorce, more so for the man (hence more women initiate divorces), emotional costs (anxiety, stress, guilt about the kids), social stigma to a degree, the burden of having to look for a new partner in some cases.  

I would define true loyalty as a person intentionally placing themselves in a situation that does not optimize their value in some way when they are able to perceive the lack of optimization, consciously or subconsciously.  Some economic theory suggests this doesn't exist, and that at all times one can find a way in which the person is consciously or subconsciously maximizing the amount of value they can get in any situation.

For example:  Mother Teresa did what she did because the emotional reward of philantropy resonated extremely strongly with her, so she was essentially selfish in her cause.  Someone who gives their life for a friend had extremely strong beliefs that were able to override self preservation responses, or they were unable to correctly perceive the risk.  In the same way, instances where you see a husband stay with a wife even after she becomes crippled or mamed, you could argue he replaces the lost value of sexual intimacy with the emotional joys of being an extremely giving and selfless person, and avoiding the emotional pain of being the douche bag that left his crippled wife, but ironically in doing so he is being just as selfish as the guy who leaves her for the first hot piece of ass to come along.

You can delve into this much deeper but you get the point.  This is obviously pretty dark as it paints a picture of people as autonomous value maximizing machines who consciously or unconsciously are driven by cold calculations developed through eons of evolution.  For me, the best way to look at this is to see that morality is for retards and that essentially you should be very selective about which arbitrary rules of conduct you should choose to follow. 

I find it funny how the vast majority of people laugh at Christian morality and what a joke it is not to get drunk or to stay a virgin until marriage, but they don't take it a step further and drop the bs of someone being better than another person because they go out of their way to help someone or they are less likely to hurt someone physically.  It starts to mindfuck you when you look at your own actions through this paradigm and you start realizing that even your so called selfless, I'm a good person bs is all another way of you getting some, expecting some payback down the road either real or imaginary (belief in karma). 

So what's my answer to the question?  Yes, and in fact all human interaction that has ever occurred is the sum of conscious and unconscious calculations of what value we can gain by any action in any circumstance.
What about where loyalty is in her interest? most people (obviously, I see it mostly on women but I don't think most men are much different) won't show this kind of lolyalty either:
Like if you were giving her what she needed and she loved you, then maybe you fucked up and stopped doing it for a while - Instead of telling you something is weird lately, most women will just go "We have to talk, we should break up" on you  -- No "Listen, lately something is different, just wanted to let you know" - none of that, only the break-up speech.

I know I have been feeling these weird "wow should I really be with this girl?" sometimes in a relationship, and I just calmed it with reminding myself how I usually love her..
She on the other hand just went fully inlove to "we should break up" in a week.
If I really think about it, I can see how things were different in the last 2 weeks - I was less confident, I had less time for her cause of school (GMAT), some little fight we had - But it's like she didn't even try to save it in honor of remembering how good it can be - the attitude seemed to be "It's not good right now - GOODBYE".

I don't have problems with being being selfish - but this is stupid selfish..

Most other girls will be the same or worse (according to stories I hear and even threads on here) so, I guess it's just about finding girls who can calm themselves down enough to reationally evaluate the situation and not "pull the trigger" on the relationship too early.

This actually goes in accordace with what Tyler was saying about relationships are better for older people --- When the hormones get balanced we are less drastical in our moves + the difference of the hormone levels in males vs females gets less noticed, making it easier to understand each other.

BTW - Do you notice that when you have a girlfriend you are by far less inclined surfing to this web site?
'Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.'
-Mark Twain.

'Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.'
-Marcus Aurelius.

'Just Do It.'
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Senior Member

Join Date: 05/03/2011 | Posts: 161

have you ever been with a girl and just lauged with her about somethin funny in a purely conscious moment....there is no wanting or needing from either of you just laughtet thats it...this unconditional love
we as humans are capable of expanding this to make it more frequent occassion...but you can't force a girl to become present only influence her to do so
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Join Date: 04/28/2012 | Posts: 80

 Would you date a girl who didn't have a pussy. Who cares if they want shit from us we want shit from them. It's supposed to be win / win.
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Senior Member

Join Date: 11/15/2011 | Posts: 119

do u hang with leonardo
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Junior Member

Join Date: 05/04/2012 | Posts: 1

I agree with Paris. Just deal with shit in the moment -- just like going out and approaching, you don't want to be future projecting and running rejection scenarios through your mind
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Respected Member

Join Date: 01/12/2009 | Posts: 663

Yeah, this is something I have struggled with, too. Here's the thing.

Yes, to a certain extent girls are with you for what you offer. And your comment about chodes and players being the same- giving some value, just in different forms- is quite astute.

What you need to remember though, is that YOU are with her for HER value, as well. How does she make you feel sexually? Emotionally? etc. If these were to leave indefinitely, how long would you stay?

To a certain extent, we are all selfish value seekers. We have that animal part of us. But we have the choice to transcend it. The important thing to remember is this:


As long as you're the man who steps up and lives his life as a champion, in alignment with who he is and his deepest values, you can't fail. So you're not a victim, it's just that you can't be lazy or less than your best self. This is a critical distinction.

And this is good, because you being in alignment with your deepest values is good for the world. If you didn't have that pressure to step up, the world would be lesser place.
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Join Date: 10/22/2010 | Posts: 42

Yes we are, so fuck them and leave them.. let someone else cary they'r shitt!
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Junior Member

Join Date: 04/28/2012 | Posts: 22

Absolute quality thread. I think this thread might have saved me 10 years worth of headfuck.
It seems as if most of the posters here are not active, so questions for everyone who reads this thread:

Question #1:
YouMeSex? wrote:

If you could just see through the pretense of 'caring about other people' your ego would get slaughtered. You'd never be reactive to anyone. You'd become "dominant", free from your own bloated self, other people and society in general. You'd think this would leave you bitter, but once in contact with reality, once your stupid fantasies about other people have vanished, that first time you see people for what they are, that's the first time you'll love someone instead of 'romantic love' someone.

That girl lying in your arms is there for her, not for you. Get the fantasies out of your head and something new will come up, which will get all the bitches for you. I'm only mildly joking.

Could anyone explain this "love" that I bolded here that YouMeSex? is talking about? I am going through the same thoughts here as the OP (Chance) is, but I wonder how I can find this "love" that YouMeSex? is talking about, because I was a romantic my entire life until I read this post, and frankly I am very disappointed because now I find that my day-to-day actions so far were very much motivated by hoping to find this "romantic love." All that comes to my mind after reading this thread is that if we can't get this "romantic love" that some of us have fantasized for most of our lives, what else is left of girls? Aren't they just objects for sex at this point? Sextoys that move and talk? Is that what everyone in RSD are into pickup for? Besides being able to bust a nut into a warm hole, what does pulling give you? I am sure that I am missing something here. Help needed.

Question #2:
Popsail wrote:

What about where loyalty is in her interest? most people (obviously, I see it mostly on women but I don't think most men are much different) won't show this kind of lolyalty either:
Like if you were giving her what she needed and she loved you, then maybe you fucked up and stopped doing it for a while - Instead of telling you something is weird lately, most women will just go "We have to talk, we should break up" on you -- No "Listen, lately something is different, just wanted to let you know" - none of that, only the break-up speech.
What I can conclude from this thread is that girls will never be "loyal" to you unless they are receiving a consistent stream of values, or, they are old, more manly, with less hormones and therefore more able to "remember the good times" whenever they see gaps in the stream of values that we give them. Then what makes a younger girl want to keep me? Or what makes girls in general want to KEEP me? Only the girls who know that I'm rich (if I were) and know that they can divorce me and take half of my money? In which case they are still ultimately disloyal? Am I missing something here?
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Join Date: 08/13/2012 | Posts: 67

Love is a verb, an action, and cannot defined by the sum of its components. To look at it like a mathematical equation is to miss the chemistry (for lack of a better word) that is really taking place.

Looking at love by breaking it down into chemical reactions in your brain and exchanges of things, time and value between two people is like going to a river, filling up a cup with water from it, and then claiming that you have a river in your hand.

I'm starting to think that in the same way that hot girls get spoiled by more attention and validation than anyone ever deserves for the amount of struggle they go through, we are being spoiled in the same way by succesfully quantifying all the dynamics of human attraction/mating. It should not be so goddamn difficult for one perfectly healthy human being to mate with another.
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Respected Member

Join Date: 05/17/2011 | Posts: 861

Remember: The brain in love is different then the brain out of love.

Just smashing a girl is lust. A girl just smashing is lust.

Sorry for my short post. Im in a hurry and am on my phone. Great thread fellas!
Currently discovering deeper connections with women.
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